Column: War with Iran?

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[Note: Shara Esbenshade is a junior at Uni High and a frequent contributor to the Gargoyle. Kumars Salehi, a first-generation Iranian-American, is also a junior at Uni High. An earlier version of this commentary first appeared as part of a larger article in the April 2007 issue of the Public i, the monthly newspaper of the Urbana-Champaign Independent Media Center.]

kumars_shara1

KUMARS SALEHI & SHARA ESBENSHADE
Gargoyle contributors
Posted Saturday, April 21, 2007
Opinions

THE BACKGROUND

THE UNITED STATES has a history of interfering with Iran's development. In 1953, the United States collaborated with Britain to overthrow democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh, and put Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi back into power. His rule quickly became a dictatorship.

After the Iranian seizure of the American Embassy in Tehran in 1979, the United States froze $12 billion in Iranian assets, which have still not been released. In 1995 President Bill Clinton, under pressure from Congress and the pro-Israel lobby, imposed a total embargo on trade between Iran and U.S. companies.

The following year Congress passed the Iran-Libya Sanctions Act, which imposed sanctions on Iran's trade with non-U.S. companies as well. Although the European Union denounced the legislation and declared it void, it blocked some needed investment for Iran.


ON THE BRINK

Today, the U.S. government claims to be concerned about Iran's alleged efforts to make nuclear weapons. President George W. Bush named Iran a threat to the U.S. during his “Axis of Evil” speech in January 2002. The Bush administration's official position is that a nuclear-armed Iran is not acceptable.

Western intelligence agencies say that Iran's nuclear program has serious technical problems right now and, if it gets no outside help, is at least a couple years away from being able to develop actual nuclear warheads.

In the aftermath of Israel's bombing of Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor in 1981, the Iranian program has moved to underground, more dispersed, and harder-to-find sites.

This means that the U.S. military would have to use mini-nukes to actually reach Iran's nuclear development sites, if it were to attack.

When asked about how he plans to deal with Iran, President Bush has repeatedly stated that all options are on the table, including those nuclear options. In 2005, the U.S. revised its Doctrine For Joint Nuclear Operations to include preemptive use on states with no nuclear weapons.

The administration has denied that the U.S. is currently preparing for war with Iran, but a look at the facts suggests we are on the brink of one.


THE SILENT WAR

Journalist Seymour Hersh has reported in his ongoing coverage for The New Yorker that the administration has been conducting secret reconnaissance missions inside Iran since the summer of 2004, and has been flying unmanned armed vehicles into Iran from Iraq since 2003, a couple of which have crashed in Iran.

WHAT CAN YOU DO?
  • Phone your reps: Tell them to support HR 770, which would prohibit the use of funds for covert action against Iran; call Congress toll free at 1-866-340-9281.
  • Send “Postcards For Peace”: Write your own messages to Sens. Obama & Durbin and Rep. Johnson on these prestamped, preaddressed postcards; Activism Club will do postcard-writing Monday during lunch.
  • Stay informed: Knowledge is power.

According to Hersh, these incursions have reportedly found hardly any new information, and the Iranian government has formally denounced them as illegal.

Meanwhile, the U.S. could launch covert missions into Iran using U.S. troops.

In 2005, Hersh reported that president Bush “signed a series of findings and executive orders authorizing secret commando groups and other Special Forces units to conduct covert operations against suspected terrorist targets in as many as 10 nations in the Middle East and South Asia,” which, Hersh explained, would allow these operations to be run without the legal restrictions that are imposed on the CIA.

Recently, ABC News reported that the United States has been waging a “secret war with Iran.”

The U.S. has been advising and encouraging the Pakistani militant group Jundullah, a force of several hundred that has been leading guerilla raids into Iran, with the goal of destabilizing the country.

They have captured and executed a dozen Iranians already, attacking military and intelligence officers. The U.S. government says the U.S. provides no direct funding to the group, because that would require Congressional oversight, but has maintained close ties with its leader, former Taliban fighter Abd el Malik Regi, since 2005.

War with Iran could happen without any public declaration of it from the American government.

As Joseph Cirincione, director of nonproliferation at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace said, “a military strike would be disastrous for the United States. It would rally the Iranian public around an otherwise unpopular regime, inflame anti-American anger around the Muslim world, and jeopardize the already fragile U.S. position in Iraq.”

Additionally, Cirincione commented, “[An attack] would accelerate, not delay, the Iranian nuclear program. Hard-liners in Tehran would be proven right in their claim that the only thing that can deter the United States is a nuclear bomb. Iranian leaders could respond with a crash nuclear program that could produce a bomb in a few years.”

It is not hard to see why “Bush ‘n' Friends” are having a relatively easy time passing conquest off as self-defense and liberation.


THE REALITY IN IRAN

The U.S. media portrayal of Iran is as a totalitarian theocracy bereft of free speech, equal rights, and opportunity — and most of all, bereft of the ability to change. Our government wants us to think that Iran does not deserve the right to determine its own destiny; the Bush administration's goal is to coax us into believing that the only way that we can be safe and Iran can have freedom is if we invade, nuke some “key places,” and smudge some collateral damage statistics.

What one does not hear, of course, is that Iran is not synonymous with its president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

In truth, suggesting the invasion of Iran due to the words and actions of this fellow is startlingly comparable to espousing an outside takeover of the U.S. due to our own president's lunacy.

Iran, like our United States, is a country made up of people, not policies. The Iranian people have been, and still are, making great strides in the areas of free speech and equal rights, areas which Americans have become increasingly comfortable with losing in recent years.

Women are gaining power and prominence in both social and political arenas, and the gradual movement toward a better Iran persists despite the presidency of Ahmadinejad, who is to former president Mohammad Khatami as Bush is to, well, Clinton (or Carter, if we can be so bold).

If our government tries to speed up this gradual movement with an invasion, or a nuclear or conventional attack, it will only incite a rage and hostility toward America that will unite the dissenters with the oppressors in an effort to keep the real villains out of their homeland.

The war in Iraq completely failed, and even that ended in the Iraqis fighting mainly each other. There will be no civil war in Iran, only fear, then anger, then hate, then suffering and bloodshed that will take the lives of not only innumerable Iranians but also those of the baby boys and girls of the Archetypal Poor Working-Class Family.

All of these lives are equally valuable, but guess which loss will be a greater motivation for Americans to speak out?

Thanks to the dehumanization of people of Middle Eastern origin in the American media, the beautiful, rich, cultured nation of Iran can be turned into a war zone, and, just like Iraq, no one will care until it's too late.

Iran is growing, and will continue to grow. If we stunt its growth with our bombs, we will turn a hopeful, promising nation into exactly what Bush wants it to be: a radicalized, volatile, dangerous state, ready for the taking.


YOU CAN TAKE ACTION

For the anti-war community out there, it is time we stopped denying the possibility of war with Iran and realize it is already beginning.

While we sit and complain about the government's reluctance to provide a timetable for withdrawal from Iraq, a deceitful debacle of even more monstrous proportions is beginning, right before our eyes.

In an article about a year ago, Hersh reported the words of a White House
military planner: “People think Bush has been focussed on Saddam Hussein
since 9/11, but, in my view, if you had to name one nation that was his
focus all the way along, it was Iran.”

Americans cannot afford another war financially or politically. The Middle East cannot afford more destruction. A war with Iran would be more than an expansion of the War on Terror we are already waging in Iraq; it could draw in other world powers like Russia and make nuclear war a possibility.

Recently, Iran released the 15 British sailors and marines it had captured, and we all sighed a little with relief that no larger conflict arose.

But, we must now consider how to oppose a war with Iran that is not even made public, for that seems to be a very real path for the Bush administration.

We urge those who oppose the current war with Iraq, or those who have misgivings about the use of military force in general, to act against the coming war with Iran.

Phone your representatives and tell them to support HR 770 to prevent an attack on Iran without congressional authorization. This bill would prohibit the use of funds for a covert action against Iran. The toll-free number for the Capitol switchboard is 1-866-340-9281. Come out to AWARE's anti-war protests at One Main in downtown Champaign from 2 to 4 p.m. the first Saturday of every month.

AWARE is currently working on a “Postcards For Peace” campaign. Write your representatives to tell them your thoughts and/or concerns about the possibility of an attack on Iran.

We have prestamped, preaddressed postcards (to Sens. Barack Obama and Richard Durbin, and Rep. Tim Johnson) that are blank on the back — you write your own words, which is much more moving, but it will only take as much time and effort as you want it to because it is a small postcard.

Find Shara Esbenshade in the hallways or e-mail her at esbenshd@uni.uiuc.edu for postcards or more information. Activism Club will do postcard-writing at lunch on Monday, April 23.

AWARE is prepared to call for demonstrations of public outrage in the event of an attack on Iran, without explicit congressional consent. The initial demonstration will be called for 5:30 p.m. on the day of the attack at the County Courthouse in Urbana.

Most importantly, keep yourself informed. As a former high-level intelligence official told Seymour Hersh: “It's not if we're going to do anything against Iran. [The White House and the Pentagon are] doing it.”


RELATED

— Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, March 5, 2007: The Redirection

— Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, Nov. 27, 2006: The Next Act

— Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, July 10, 2006: Last Stand

— Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, April 17, 2006: The Iran Plans

— Seymour Hersh, The New Yorker, Jan. 24, 2005: The Coming Wars

Comments

This article doesnt bother to mention some of the recent outrageous and fundamentally false allegations that this administration has made about Iran and its involvement in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Recently some weapons were apparently smuggled over the Iranian border to the Taliban by criminals in the private sector with no links to the Tehran government and the Bush administration accused the Iranians of supporting the Taliban. The Taliban have been one of Tehran's biggest regional opponents for years, the Bush administration is just unwilling to admit that in this case American and Iranian interests are one in the same. Even more surprising are the allegations that are circulated throughout the media that Tehran is arming anti-American insurgencies. The fact is that the only confirmed Iranian proxy in the country is the SCIRI (Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq) that along with the Al-Dawa party of Nouri Al Maliki are the two closest allies to the United States. Even if the Sadrist Mahdi militia receives aide from Tehran they have not only agreed to not attack American troops under any circumstances but they even withdrew their militias from the streets to better accommodate the changes in the recent security surge. All the talk that Iran is making the weapons that kill American troops is propaganda, in the cases of the two Iraq and Afghanistan Iran shares interests with the United States. If we cooperated with Tehran these proxies could operate more effectively.

Didn't the Iranian leader proclaim that the holocaust never happened? Aren't these the people who held American's hostage from the embassy? So, I think we should believe everything the Iranians tell us.

If you believe that an entire country can be judged by the actions of its leaders, then we disagree fundamentally and argument would be a waste of both of our time. Supporters of Bush here are like supporters of Ahmadinejad there: unrepresentative of the overall population. If we don't fundamentally disagree, then I could suggest to you that the lies that the Iranian government are telling are unlike our administration's lies in that they are not mean to trick a nation into going to war. It is true that the Iranian government detained British sailors - but what of the grossly disproportionate action that is being taken against Iranians in Iraq as well as is being prepared for quite covertly by the military.

Mrs. Renner, I think you missed one of the major points of this article: Iran is not synonymous with its leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. To use his rejection of the Holocaust as an excuse for sword-rattling over the heads of an entire country is simply unacceptable. Also, if the hostage situation you refer to is the Iranian student takeover of the American embassy in 1979, you have to remember that these students were acting out of extreme anger at the US for our role in installing the dictatorial Mohammed Reza Pahlavi as Shah instead of supporting democratically elected Mohammed Mossedeq in 1953, and also for our perceived obstruction of justice in refusing to return the Shah to the Iranian government to be tried for corruption following his deposition in 1979. While this doesn't justify taking hostages, it also doesn't affect the credibility of Iran's government a quarter of a century later. Finally, your sarcastic final line about believing everything the Iranians tell us has no relevance to this article- the evidence Shara and Kumars highlight in this article is the result of American journalism and intelligence, not an Iranian claim that we are threatening war. I don't know what point you were trying to make in your comment. Could you please clarify?

If you believe that an entire country can be judged by the actions of its leaders, then we disagree fundamentally and argument would be a waste of both of our time. Supporters of Bush here are like supporters of Ahmadinejad there: unrepresentative of the overall population. Iran is not synonymous with its leader Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Yes, but to imply, as Kumars and Shara did, that Ahmadinejad's actions are unimportant is foolish and naive. I think your comparison of Bush with Ahmadinejad is unfair, but that's beside the point. No one would argue that Bush is an impotent leader; his actions have consequences, whether or not you feel they're representative of the American people. Likewise for Ahmadinejad--whether or not he represents the majority of the Iranian population is ultimately unimportant in deciding whether or not to go to war [though it's tangentially important if he could be popularly removed, which would avoid the whole possibility of war]. Kim Jong-Il is not supported by a majority of the North Korean population, but if we were going to wage a war against North Korea, saying we shouldn't fight because "most of the people there don't hate the U.S." is not a valid reason. I find your acceptance of Iran as an inevitable nuclear power disheartening and frightening.

Speaking of hostages.. did you know the United States has been holding Iranians hostage for months now that still have not been released? More info: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2414760.ece http://www.examiner.com/a-672925~U_S__Holds_Onto_Iranians_Seized_in_Iraq.html

I wonder why you find that prospect so disheartening and frightening, Ben. Knowing that you are an informed, intelligent individual, I cannot say that it is because you have been mislead by the government and the media into thinking that Iran is a potential danger to America. Could it be because of regional conflicts?

My last point about believing the Iranians is my take on the view point of the authors. They seem so willing to believe ABC's reports of secret wars and anything anti-US. This exposes the authors bias on the subject. Obviously, this article is just their opinion. They mention the 15 soldiers captured by the Iranians but perhaps I missed their article of outrage over the initial capture of these soldiers. Many people believe that Iran is building the bomb to use on Israel. As for Jake S.'s comment, while you say "this doesn't justify taking hostages" why mention it if you are not using it to justify these actions. To think that an "incident" that occured a quarter of a century should have no impact today is extremely naive. What about Shabba Farms? My other point is that noone has first hand personal knowledge of most news items. We rely on the news for our information. People need to question news reporting. The choice of what stories to carry, how to present them, and how often varies by news source. Question and examine all. Don't just seek out news stories that bolster your position.

While I agree with most of your points, the idea that allowing Iran to become nuclear is acceptable is disheartening, at best. While I won't make an observation on the Israeli/Palestinian situation, I will say that Iran with a nuclear weapon could very well spell an end for millions of people in Israeli territory. Also, the idea that Ahmadinejad is a nearly irrelevant figure is simply ludicrous. No nation's leader can be waved aside as easily as you do him. For example, a majority of the nation is against the Iraq war. However, due to the administration's efforts, we are still there. In the same way, Ahmadinejad's decisions can and will move the country, no matter what individual citizens think.

Carl, while I respect your opinion, I have to say that if you feel that way about the relationship between Ahmadinejad and Iran, then perhaps you would advocate a foreign military takeover of the United States, because our president is clearly a threat to world security. Mrs. Renner, I'm sure you have a great time assuming that you know exactly how Shara and I think. You claim that because we researched sources that provided us with information to support our article, we are clearly biased. Do you really think that we would have even thought of writing this article in the first place if we hadn't known that things like this were going on? Do you really think that this is a subversive opinion piece rather than a 100% factual exposition piece? Do you really think that because we didn't write an article about the British sailors, our opinion on the subject in retrospect is less valid? If your agenda is to defend the Bush regime and their actions in the Middle East, come out and say it.

I'd like to point out the arrogance contained in many of the comments above- the very same arrogance that has brought about the Iraq War and driven much of American foreign policy for the past hundred years. Ahmadinejad is scary- no denying it. Ehud Olmert is scary. Both are responsible for oppressing huge populations- in Iran, dissidents are often tortured or killed and even peaceful protest is rarely tolerated. In Israel, Palestinians are segregated and treated inhumanely by the IDF (see Dana Al-Qadi's slideshow) in an apartheid state. It is widely believed that Israel possesses substantial nuclear weapons already and may have a chemical and biological weapons program. Iran is on its way to making nuclear weapons. The United States likes to pick and choose which corrupt and oppressive nations it will support. Today, we support Israel, although its human rights record is probably worse than modern Iran's. In the past, we have supported Iran. The point I would like to make, however, is that the commenters above fail to explain why they find the prospect of Iran having nuclear weapons so "frightenening" while they do not care that Israel has them, and do not advocate invading Israel to destroy its nuclear weapons program. I think I know why: Israel, being as it so hugely relies on American support, would not use its nuclear weapons against the United States, only possibly against its neighbors in the Middle East. Iran, however, is not so freindly with America. Carl suggests we must stop Iran's weapon program so they don't bomb Israel- why doesn't he argue that we should stop Israel's weapons program so it won't bomb Iran? Why does he trust Israel over Iran? Is he not aware of how Israel treats its people and its neighbors? Thus, while discussing the use of nuclear weapons here is all very hypothetical, to say that Iran should not have nuclear weapons but Israel may is inherently arrogant and ignorant- born out of a paranoia that Iran would attack us, and most of all it is based upon the idea that American lives (and Israeli lives?) are more important than the lives of anyone else in the world. Israel is no more sane, safe, or free a country than Iran, and due to the power it has it is more dangerous to the world. I point this out to make people question why they do not worry about Israeli nuclear weapons, but would be willing to go to war to stop Iran from getting them. I'd like to suggest that that contradictory, hypocritical notion is based upon this American disease of racism and arrogance that our current political leaders have so successfully infected us with. Like I said, this is hypothetical, and as I emphasized in our article, the overarching reason that I will always advocate AGAINST war, is because war in this day and age (and in the style of the Bush administration) necessitates mass innocent deaths. There is never a good enough reason to kill innocent people, and it horrifies me that the comments I just read find that acceptable.

Shara, I trust Israel more than Iran. That's for sure. But I have a reason. The way I see it, Israel is pretty emasculated. Without US support, they would likely have collapsed from internal as well as foreign problems. Therefore, without our extreme consent, they lack the power and ability to cause a nuclear war in the middle east. Iran doesn't have the same safety net. But does any of that make me racist against Iranians? No. Not at all. Arrogance possibly, but not racism. I recognize the moral weight thousands of innocent deaths cause, regardless of race.

I'd like to hear some replies. Carl? Mrs. Renner?

I am going to try to be very careful when I say this, because in truth, I am not pro-Israel, nor am I pro-Palestine. I think both sides are wrong. However, I would like to point out that when all of your neighbors want you off the map, it is hard to sit back and not protect yourself. If the US did not support Israel, I don't know if there would still be an Israel. Perhaps that is what people want, but I feel at least some semblance of a connection to the Jewish state and would be sad to see it go because no one thinks that there is an alternative to taking one side and then blowing the other side up.

The prospect of Iran having nuclear weapons is frightening because in October 2006 Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be "wiped off the map." That sounds like more than arrogance to me. Like you, I also never advocate for war.

I have a lot to say in response to that, Sarah, but most of it doesn't belong in a thread about the war with Iran. Maybe you could write an article expressing your views and this discussion could take place there. Carl, nuclear war isn't the only kind of war that kills innocent people. Israel DOES have our extreme consent to operate outside the limits whenever it wants, especially in the case of military action against other populations in the Middle East. If you don't think so, I'd like to remind you of the crisis in Lebanon not so long ago. The same "safety net" you speak of is the one that allows Israel to perform actions that would be immediate grounds for a "pre-emptive strike" were they Iran's. Let us say it is more of a boon than a bane for the Zionist militarists.

Carl, you are right- Israel would probably have to have U.S. consent before it used its nuclear weapons. So, you trust America over Iran. I don't- our president has caused far, far more destruction and deaths than Ahmadinejad and is slowly (or rather not so slowly) chipping away at American democratic rights, while Iranians are actually moving toward more freedom (although slowly and starting from much worse oppression).

Shara, The way you've dealt with this is completely one-sided and hurtful. I'm Jewish, so of course I'll support an Israeli state--we need one, especially after the Holocaust. But at the same time, I'd like to think that I understand the other side of the discussion. But that's where my problem with your argument comes in: you didn't give Israel a chance at all. You launched into a rant saying that Israel's, "human rights record is probably worse than modern Iran's," and yet you: a.) gave absolutely no real backing for that point b.) didn't discuss the other side, which I know would immediately argue, "what are we supposed to do when we see our children being blown to a pulp on their way to school? Do you expect us, the Israeli citizens and government, to just sit by and watch this horror unravel?" What's more, you said that, "Israel is no more sane, safe, or free a country than Iran, and due to the power it has it is more dangerous to the world." I don't see how you can say this. As Mrs. Renner stated above, "in October 2006 Ahmadinejad called for Israel to be 'wiped off the map.'" So how is it that it would be a good idea to give someone as unstable as that the ability to create and deploy nuclear arms? Israel may have their own nuclear stockpile, and they may have made some incredible military errors in the past (e.g. the war this summer), but I didn't see a definitive quote in your comment from any Israeli official motioning to level another country. Whether you realize it or not, your stance comes off as incredibly biased and anti-Jewish: you're not illustrating an understanding of the broader picture, and have therefore created something incredibly offensive--and I'm not even that pro-Israel, compared to a lot of my Jewish friends. I realize you didn't mean to sound anti- Jewish, but by being so critical of the Israeli state, the subtext comes off as an attack all on its own. I'm sorry to address you so bluntly with this, but before you speak, you really should consider who is going to read your words, and how they're going to interpret them. In this sense, the thesis of your argument really seems to be a "contradictory, hypocritical notion [that] is based upon this American disease of racism and arrogance that our current political leaders have so successfully infected us with." I understand that you feel negatively about the Bush Administration--so do I for that matter--and I also understand that one sometimes must fight fire with fire, but as you point out, the Iranian government does not necessarily represent the views of all of the Iranian people. In the same vein you refuse to consider that the Israeli government does not represent the views of every Israeli citizen; not every Zionist is filled with hatred for the Palestinians, Lebanese, or any other member of the worldwide Muslim community. I think it's amazing that I've been able to have deeply involved discussions with Muslim students at Uni over this situation in the Middle East and leave without any negative feelings, regardless of the thinness of the ice on which we tread. But again, despite the fact that you may not have realized how this could have been interpreted, I felt that your comment really crossed the line. I don't expect you see things from my angle, I too am concerned about Israel's truly violent actions towards various Middle Eastern nations (though I do hope you can come to understand how we as a Jewish community feel deeply connected to Israel's plight) but I'm not asking for you to surrender your opinions. Rather, I just want to make it clear that in being so one- sided, you've illustrated a complete disregard for our existence as moral beings and instead have painted Jews as demonic figures. In doing so, you have ironically propagated the one myth that reflects the core of the Mideast controversy itself: a claim to justice by both sides that casts the other into the role of being the purveyor of pure and unmitigated evil. Instead of putting themselves in the others' shoes, both the Jews and Muslims in the Mideast have characterized the other as a malicious enemy. Yet the violence escalates and neither side has approached the other sympathetically and successfully. The only way to create a lasting and meaningful peace is to break down these barriers and to see everyone for who they truly are: frightened individuals who see retaliation as their only path to survival. I could post my own comment or column in response to what you've said, and give my own rant about terrorism and suicide bombings in Israel--how the IDF has every right to use their military might when walking in public isn't even safe. But I don't believe that, and in fact, I think that if we do espouse those views, we're just adding to the conflict and making it more hopeless than ever before. Something that hasn't been instituted by anyone in the Middle East is forgiveness, which is why I'm not going to be inflammatory towards you. But even while what you wrote was not directed at me or any other Jewish student at Uni, I felt that it was unfair, hypocritical, exceedingly offensive, and overall un-kosher. If you truly believe in peace, we'll be able to see eye-to-eye on that one point, at least.

Jono, your post was addresse to Shara and not me, so I will keep this brief. It just infuriates me that we in America have become caught up in a system where it is acceptable to brand anyone who speaks out against Israel's military actions "anti-Semitic". This, I feel, is equivalent to branding anyone who does not support Bush's war a "traitor". It's fearmongering meant to stifle views that could harm the power structure of our administration.

I would also like to add that it is not only illogical but downright erroneous to say that both sides of the Israeli-Palestnian conflict are equally at fault. Anyone who can recognize that the Israelis are an occupying military force and the Palestinians are an occupied people would be blind (or in possession of another agenda) to assign blame equally. Iran is currently the forceful military occupant of 0 (zero) sovereign nations. Shara can argue in her own defense, I just thought I would point this out.

Kumars, You may be right that Jews feel threatened when people bash on Israel because of some mighty power structure that we all unknowingly answer to, but I would like to point out that I too, as a Jew, feel offended when people too harshly judge Israel. And I am not even pro-Israel. So, at least this time, I must agree with Jono. Perhaps it is wrong when I feel that those who are radically anti-Israel are also anti-Semitic, but if that is how I feel, then don't you have to respect that to some degree? Just like we respect the Native Americans who feel offended by the chief. When something you are saying is bothering someone, then shouldn't you not say it, or at least change the way you say it so that it doesn't hurt them? I would love to have a civil conversation about the Palestine-Israeli conflict, but I don't want to do it if the person I am talking to just spends the whole time hurling insults at Israel, and isn't willing to see the other side. Because no matter how much I disagree with Israel and think it is doing awful things, I am connected to it. I try really hard to stay in the middle of this fight and see both sides. But when people make assertions that Israel is an evil country, I can't help but jump to its defense. Perhaps I am not as moderate as I think. But, when the goal is peace, and maybe I am being too optimistic in thinking that is the true goal, then the hatred towards either side that permeates this comment thread is never going to solve the problem, nor is laying blame.

Jono, I am sorry that my comment offended you, but I still do not understand why. I think you read a lot into my comment: I definitely do not believe the Israeli government represents the ISraeli people, and nowhere did I imply that in my comment. I was offended reading that. As you say, that completely contradicts my whole argument that one should not punish a nation of people for its government's actions. The comment I write right now is not going to be very articulate because your accusations really shook me up. You obviously assumed I am not Jewish. While I'm not religious, I am part Jewish actually and the only reason I make that point is to tell you that being against the Israeli state is not to be against Jewish people. I am against the American government, but I love my country and the American people. Like all of us, I have conflicting notions about the Israel-Palestine conflict, but I do know one thing- that no government should be allowed to treat people so badly. You need some information about Israel's human rights record? Why don't you look at Dana's recent post, or at Israel's actions during teh Lebanon war (http://www.aljazeera.com/me.asp?service_id=13535)? You said "but I didn't see a definitive quote in your comment from any Israeli official motioning to level another country." Israel already has leveled a country. Lebanon not only suffered huge human losses, its infrastructure is destroyed.

Such inflammatory arguments as the ones I have read in this thread, articulated in such a manner are, however indirectly, responsible for crippling any influence that peace-loving, free-thinking individuals can have over our government to cease support of genocidal nations such as Israel. My apologies, Jono and Sarah, if you identify with Israel and find Shara's and my comments about the Israeli government's actions to be "anti-Semitic", but there are times when such considerations must cease to be of high priority due to how frequently they are abused in the interest of fearmongering and manipulation. Even beginning to equate Israel and Iran as out-of-control military threats to human life is absurd, unrealistic and objectively erroneous.

I would like to clarify. I obviously don't think that everyone who is anti-Israel is anti-Semitic. But when someone expresses extreme hatred of the Israeli state, it does put me on my toes. I obviously don't think that Shara is anti-Semitic. To say that disregarding anti-Semitism is the only way to achieve peace is unacceptable Kumars. I would have hoped that you would know better than that, because hatred of the Jewish people and the Jewish state is a real thing, and an issue that we need to deal with before any resolution can result. The same way we need to deal with the racism and hatred aimed at those of Middle Eastern descent.

It's always surprising to me when I hear people speak emphatically about Israel as a genocidal country while there is so much silence about Darfur, where real genocide, to the tune of tens to hundreds of thousands, is now being propagated by Muslims against black Africans. I don't see the Israeli/Palestinian conflict in such black and white terms as some of the posts in this article imply. But unfortunately, genocide in Darfur is black and white- both figuratively and literatlly. That is why many people equate unbalanced diatribes against Israel with anti-Semitism. When so much attention is placed on Israel's actions when outright rape, mayhem, and murder go on elsewhere in the world, while attracting correspondingly little atttention let alone sense of outrage, many Jews and others legitimately wonder about motivation. Not the motivation of those that question or even are shocked by some of actions of the Israeli government- after all much of this is actively raised by the Israeli and Jewish press. But they do question the motivation of the anti Israeli movement that doesn't appear to acknowledge that any of Israel's actions- right or wrong- are reactions to violence directed against civilians from the other side. Apathy unfortunately is a natural response to human disasters elsewhere in the world. But the tremendous contradictions between the attention and outrage over Israel's actions, combined with apathy over the Bosnias and Darfurs of the world, are surprising. This is the primary argument for anti-Semitism being involved in some of the more extreme anti-Israel rhetroric.

Mr. Belmont, Obviously, I am against the genocide in Darfur. In fact, I don't know anyone who thinks that it is a good thing or a justified thing. People have opinions on it, pretty unanimous ones, they are just inactive. I agree that acting on this issue is important, and I know of many organizations trying to end the genocide in Darfur and spread awareness about it. I don't actually understand your point so I can't respond to it, but I would like to explain that the reason I am particularly outraged about some of Israel's actions is because the U.S. is a huge supporter of Israel and has been complicit in them. Because I am an American, I feel a responsibility to protest such actions on the part of my government because it is in my name. When I criticize the Israeli state (never its people, to make that extra clear for those who refuse to listen to me closely) I criticize with it the American government's support of it. Israel could not have carried out the Lebanon war, for example, without America's permission. Speaking of ignored tragedies, did you know that more people have died in the Congo in the last couple years than in Darfur- the most under-reported news story of the year. I do fully agree that these tragedies need to be talked about more. After the Holocaust, everyone said, "never again" will we let genocide happen. Yet we do.

I also just wanted to clarify that the conflcit in Darfur (you seemed a bit confused) is Muslim on both sides- with Arab muslims pitted against Black Muslims- although even this issue is not black & white at all for there are many groups involved. Also: I just looked it up- apparently nearly 4 million have died in the war in the Democratic Republic of Congo since 1994- the UN estimates 1000 people die from the violence there a day.

Shara, you seem to be more than a bit confused on the nature of a democracy (or a republic). As much as you want to divest yourself from the American government, you cannot. Even if you did not vote for the person currently in office, as a citizen, the United States government is your government. The Israeli state represents the Israeli people. Democracies are imperfect representation, but they are representation nevertheless. To criticize a democracy is to criticize an elected government of the people...in other words, to criticize the people. And what's wrong with criticizing the Israeli people? Stand up for your views. I'm not afraid to criticize the Palestinian people who elected Hamas as their government. If you think the Israeli people are wrong, don't be afraid to say so. It makes the argument that much more interesting :-D. And yes, I feel that to be against the Jewishstate in principle is to be against the Jewish people. Sure, you can be against some of the actions of the state, i.e. the withdrawal in Gaza not long ago. I know many religious Jews who did not support this withdrawal, and it would take a lot of chutzpah to say that these were against the Jewish people. I reject the Neturei Karta--anyone a willing guest of Ahmadinejad is someone to watch out for. I don't understand how being against the idea of a Jewish state is not being against Jews. And of course, I have a lot more to say, including replies to specific comments, but it's past my bedtime. If only the Arab-Israeli conflict was that simple. -Ben

Ben, Referring to your example of the United States government, some would argue voter disenfranchisement and voter fraud constitutes a violation of the democratic process...

Good point Isaac. Also, Ben, when you say: "I don't understand how being against the idea of a Jewish state is not being against Jews." You're missing the entire point of Shara's and my argument. We are in no way, shape or form against the idea of a Jewish state and neither of us have said anything to that effect during this discussion. I am strongly against the Jewish government, and I do feel a good deal of frustration when interacting with individuals, Jewish or not, who support Israel's actions in Palestine. But it has nothing to do with their religion or ethinicity, and everything to do with my impulsive reaction to support for genocide. This "anti-Semitic" argument needs to be put to rest, or this McCarthyism will continue to make even the most supposedly "liberal" of presidential candidates (coughObamacough) conform to this disgusting norm. To recap: vote Dennis Kucinich in '08.

Kumars, You're being blatantly hypocritical here. You said, "we are in no way, shape or form against the idea of a Jewish state and neither of us have said anything to that effect during this discussion," and followed it immediately with, "I am strongly against the Jewish government." How does that make sense? And you completely ignored Ben's point, which is that whether you realize it or not, anti-Jewish and anti-Israeli sentiments often go hand-in-hand. You can't just say that our argument (which we never actually tagged, "anti-Semitic"--everyone there is a Semite, regardless of religion) is wrong if it's how you are making us feel. What's more, I'm truly disappointed that even after offering my own movement to see each other's points, you guys are not only refusing to cooperate, but also stepping up the assault. Please just listen to what we have to say instead of refusing to acknowledge our own sentiments.

Look, dude. I'm starting to get a little ticked off. With the logic you use to accuse me of hypocrisy, it could also be argued that someone who is against the American government is against the idea of America. I've tried staying respectful so far, but I feel like you're really clutching at straws here. And I didn't ignore Ben's point, Jono. I stated that unlike he claimed, I was not against the "Jewish state in principle". I went on to state that such erroneous labeling is a suffocating influence on those who would speak out against our continued support of Israel's actions. I'm sorry if this offends you, I really am. I try to be sensitive to others' cultures and beliefs but on this point I believe it is not a matter of who is Jewish and who is not, but rather, who is willing to break with societal norms and speak out against injustice and genocide.

I understand that you feel so strongly about violence in general, and specifically, in Israel, but that's not the point that I'm trying to project here. Rather, it's that, while you don't agree that it is a matter of religion, some of us do feel that it is, at least partially. None of us are insulting or even challenging your stance on Israel's use of the IDF (although we do differ in our opinions on its nature), but we do have a problem with your unwillingness to change your tone. As I said in my original post, I've had multitudes of conversations on this situation with absolutely no hard feelings being tossed around, and I truly believe that dissent is a godsend. But when one side of what should be an equal discussion feels as though the other is exerting itself forcefully and venomously, things aren't going right. Not one of the Jewish students who has posted their concerns here has suggested that you and Shara agree with us, or else. But you need to realize that, even though our stances represent polar opposites, if we feel threatened in any way, you should consider a more appropriate or tamed form of expression. That is all.

Kumars, I am glad to see your post from May 2 when you say you are against the policies of the Isreali government but not against the concept of the State of Isreal. I suspect that part of the flak you are catching may be related to a miscommunication of your ideas. That would be unfortunate because I think it is useful for everyone to have a sincere debate about this long-standing and troubling conflict. Specifically, I for one have a no problem with your above statement, but do object very much to your repeated use of the word genocide in reference to the policies of the Isreali government. The Webster definition of genocide is "the systematic killing or extermination of a whole people or nation" and the word was first applied to the attempted extermination of the Jews by Nazi Germany. (An attempt which came very close to success, given that half the World population of Jews was killed, with a near complete elimination of European Jews.) Note that genocide does not include the horrible "collatoral" damage which occurs during every war. It does not even include the purposeful murder of civilians by soldiers during war, either on a small or large scale, as in a massacre by out of control soldiers or on a smaller scale by individual soldiers. It does not incude purposeful but terrible policies- for instance the fire bombing of Dresden during World War II or, for a more relevant example on a much more individual scale, the targeted killing of Palestinians by the IDF. It does not even include tageted killings of certain ethnic groups- for instance the killing of Jews during the pograms of Eastern Europe. Rather the definition of genocide is very clearly restricted to the purposeful and systematic implementation of a system for killing a large fraction of a particular population. Unless you can show me evidence of mass graves, of crematories with the ashes of large numbers of the Palestinian population, and demographics showing that a significant fraction of the Palestinian population has disappeared, I will accuse you of using this word improperly. If this improper use is unintentional then you should be more specific and precise in describing exactly what you hate about Isreali policies and actions. My guess is that if you do this you might indeed find common ground with some of your fellow students who have been giving you a hard time. But if this is intentional, then you will continue to be accused of Anti-|Semitism as the only apparent explanation for your choice of language. Andrew Belmont

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